New Rule re Comments
When someone has to institute a rule like this, it's pretty sad.
Some people think it's valid to respond to blog entries by posting ad hominem comments about my sexual orientation. For those of you who don't know what an ad hominem argument is, it's when you ignore the substance of what a person says, and attack the person instead. An example might be where Reuven says, "Capitalism rocks." Then Shimon says, "Reuven is ugly. Don't listen to what he says about capitalism."
Stupid, yes? But common.
So my new rule here is simply that if you want to attack me on the basis of my being gay, this is is where the comments go. If they're rude enough, I may just delete them. But if you post them to a blog entry that has nothing whatsoever to do with my being gay, I'll just delete them.
And because I know that it's not clear to some people, my mentioning my partner is not about my being gay any more than someone else mentioning their husband or wife is about their being heterosexual. So don't be cute. My blog, my rules.
Some people think it's valid to respond to blog entries by posting ad hominem comments about my sexual orientation. For those of you who don't know what an ad hominem argument is, it's when you ignore the substance of what a person says, and attack the person instead. An example might be where Reuven says, "Capitalism rocks." Then Shimon says, "Reuven is ugly. Don't listen to what he says about capitalism."
Stupid, yes? But common.
So my new rule here is simply that if you want to attack me on the basis of my being gay, this is is where the comments go. If they're rude enough, I may just delete them. But if you post them to a blog entry that has nothing whatsoever to do with my being gay, I'll just delete them.
And because I know that it's not clear to some people, my mentioning my partner is not about my being gay any more than someone else mentioning their husband or wife is about their being heterosexual. So don't be cute. My blog, my rules.
posted by Lisa | 9:48 AM
23 Comments:
I'm so sorry to hear that some people are hassling you. I saw the movie, "Trembling Before G-d" last year and that made me aware of the difficulties that gay and lesbians have with Judaism. So I wish you luck and hope that you can write what you wish without undue interference.
Oh, please. I wrote a blog entry called "Modern vs. Ultra: A False Dichotomy", and the first comment in it said:
It's amazing how you give special dispensation only in the area of homosexuality. What a hypocrite! - Jacko
Spare me. And needsabetterjob, you must have some reason why you keep posting comments here. You don't listen to a thing.
Thanks, Amishav.
You're not obligated to read my blog. And you're making an awful lot of assumptions.
1. You assume that I haven't had children.
2. You assume that I can have children.
You don't know either of those to be true, but you assume them in order to attack me. It's kind of pathetic, actually.
Somehow, "hevei dan et kol ha-adam l'chaf zechut" gets tossed out the window when gays and lesbians enter the picture. The reason is clear. It's because you aren't starting with a halakhic issue and drawing conclusions from there. Rather, you're starting with your own personal feelings, and using the halakha as a bludgeon with which to beat on anyone who you have a problem with.
It's amazing that you would actually want someone who isn't attracted to men at all to marry a man she could never love, and endure sex that feels completely unnatural to her. The most amazing part is that this sentiment comes from someone who doesn't even respect Hashem's Torah enough to abide by it.
So you can violate what the Torah actually says, and then give me grief because I'm not abiding by ideas that you, in your dubious wisdom, consider to be implied by the Torah.
You seriously need to get a life.
You know, Needy (I have to call you something, and you refuse to use a name), you have a very strange way of looking at the world. And at Judaism.
Number one, I haven't given you any of my personal details. I don't feel the need to. And the fact that you think you're entitled to them makes me wonder why you think that's the case.
What I said was very simple. Judaism runs according to law. You can't say that something is unacceptable if there's no halakha that supports your claim. Period.
You stated:
But we only have as a model, male - female families. So anything else is not acceptable.
That's nonsense. That's not how Judaism works. Things are acceptable or not acceptable based on what the halakha says.
Left-handed people are not a "mistake", just because righties are the general rule. Hashem didn't make a mistake making some people gay. If you don't understand why He did so, take it up with Him.
For my part, if He wanted to bar me from being happy and having a family, I'm quite certain He could have said so. And would have. Or would have said the appropriate things so that Chazal would deduce that my family was something awful.
It didn't happen. And you don't get to second guess Hashem or Chazal.
My daughter, Baruch Hashem, is a beautiful Bat Yisrael, and we are raising her to keep Torah and mitzvot. Who are you to say anything one way or the other about our family?
You know, I think I'm tired of anonymous comments. I've disabled that function.
Needsabetterjob said...
You still don't answer my question, or you answer it w/ another question.
I asked, where do we have in the entire Torah, both of them, a model for your lifestyle?
I've answered this already. The question is a bad one, because there doesn't need to be a model. Furthermore, your term "lifestyle" is deliberately offensive.
OTOH, we have specific guidlines regarding same sex interaction.
We have even more specific guidelines regarding opposite-sex interaction. What does that prove?
You were not barred from anything. but you have chosen your personal compulsion over following the Torah.
Compulsion, mein tuchas. You are a nasty little troll, aren't you.
I did not say you had no right to do so.
But you cannot expect Torah observant Jews to applaud your decision, because w/in the Torah, your sexual preference is seen as a choice. I know this is not the popular view.
No one is asking for applause. What I'm demanding (not asking for) is that the halakha be followed with regards to what is permissible to assume about people. That the halakha be followed with regards to how frum Jews are to be treated.
Last year, we went to two frum day schools in our area trying to sign our daughter up for kindergarten. At the second one, they were at least honest. They said "no", and made it clear that it was "no". The first one, though, which is the more "modern" of the two... well, they didn't even have the guts to do that.
It was like we were black parents trying to enroll our daughter in a white school in the 40s or 50s:
"It's not that we don't want little Letitia at our school, of course. Why, we think she'd do just great! And you seem like perfectly fine people who would be a true asset to our little community. Our concern is purely for Letitia's sake. We're worried that she might feel a little out of place. You know, just because of the difference. We would never treat her differently, God forbid. But other parents might not be willing to have her come to their homes. We think it would be better for her if she could go to school with children she had more in common with."
Pusillanimous. Vile. We sat at a table for two hours while the principal (I won't honor him with the title "rabbi") refused to even say "no". It was just one weasel word after another.
Several of her friends were going to be starting at that school in the fall. But not her. Why? Because of bigotry and hatred. Accepting a bright child into a school isn't "applauding" anything about the parents. They decided to punish a Jewish child by trying to deny her a Jewish education.
Jobbie, it's true; you don't understand. I really suggest that you go to a Jewish book store and pick up a copy of R' Zelig Pliskin's Guard Your Tongue. It's an excellent overview of the laws related to lashon hara, rechilut, etc. You'll find the answer in there, but it will be worth quite a bit more to you if you learn it yourself. If I tell you what the halakha is, you'll just argue with me about it.
Regarding the rest of your comment, see the paragraph which precedes this one. When you learn what you're allowed to assume about people, you'll understand how inappropriate your questions are.
Shabbat Shalom
You misunderstand the way the Torah works. It's not based on the Written Torah and a lot of commentary. That's the picture the Conservative movement likes to draw of it, but it's really not at all accurate.
I recommend that you take a look over at my Torah 101 blog and see if that helps explain things a little better.
With regards to this one subject, all I feel necessary to say on it is that if an Orthodox Jew actually learns the laws that are relevant, rather than relying on assumptions, he will not treat me obnoxiously. And that if I haven't given you details of my private life, it's because it would be inappropriate to do so. But my noting that I have a partner is no different than someone else noting that they have a husband or a wife. I would hope that no one would take such comments as license to speculate about their intimate life, and the same should be true in my case.
If you find what I blog of interest, that's great. But I haven't asked for your advice, Jobbie. And it's extremely inappropriate for you to be offering it. Particularly when you don't know the details of my life.
Finally, I'll say Shabbat Shalom to someone on Thursday, if I think it's the last time I'm going to seem them before Shabbat. Your statement that "one should not say this, until late Friday" is incorrect.
Shabbat Shalom.
You're mistaken about the Torah. The starting point is, indeed, the Torah, but not the Written Torah.
And while I understand your claims about being moved by my "suffering", let me point out that "help" which offends the "helpee" is no help at all. The very idea that you'd suggest that I go to a movement which denies Torah miSinai tells me how much you personally care about that concept.
The world doesn't revolve around me, much as I might like it to. And I choose to stick with doing what's right, even if I'm mistreated by the community.
From the way you've described yourself, if you're treated poorly by the community, it's probably because you don't care that much about Judaism. You can't blow off Shabbat and think that's a minor thing.
Number one, it's "moot", and not "mute". Mute means not being able to speak.
Second of all, you're coming off as somewhat racist. Or chauvinist, at the very least. Since when does one have to be a Jew to be a Baal Hesed?
With regards to the mitzvot, I refer you again over to Torah 101. The mitzvot were given by Hashem in the Oral Torah. The words of the Written Torah are not the source of the mitzvot.
Hesed is not the only foundation of Judaism. Far from it. Inappropriate Hesed is as bad as no Hesed at all.
Reducing Judaism to nothing more than Hesed is a tremendous misunderstanding. Hesed is only one facet of the Torah. Denying the Torah and doing Hesed... well, that's basically the mission statement of Christianity. See how well that turned out.
I don't do that. Nor should you. Neither of us gets to decide what is more important or less important in Judaism.
We don't pick and choose. We don't need to pick and choose.
You obviously misunderstood what I said. Judaism is not based on the Written Torah and a lot of commentary. If you think that the Oral Torah is mere "commentary", then you've missed the boat entirely.
And as for judging you, I judge you. Two wrongs don't make a right, Jobbie. That's such a cliche that I'm utterly blown away to have to be pointing it out to you. If you buy treif wine, you're being a bad Jew. Period. Particularly when it's so easy to buy kosher wine.
Maileh, if you were talking about something that was a serious, life hobbling difficulty. But wine? That's the huge hurdle that's forcing you to blow off the Torah?
And those scandals... let me tell you a little story. I went to a day school in Chicago. My cousin, who is only 30 days older than me and who grew up in the same suburb, went to the same school. Our senior year, we got a new principal.
It was awful. Changing principals is like changing all the rules, and doing that our senior year was just horrendous. Granted, it had to be someone's senior year, but knowing that didn't make it any easier for us.
My cousin kept kosher. I didn't. I wasn't raised to keep kosher, and I never had any intention of doing so. My cousin did.
And this principal... well, here's the irony. The man in question is now on the far, far left when it comes to Orthodoxy. But at the time, he came roaring in and tried to make the school much frummer, really fast.
I remember my cousin telling me that he'd eaten treif. B'davka. His comment was, "If that's a Jewish leader, then the hell with Judaism."
Okay, but he was 17 years old. That kind of sentiment is childish, and it suits a 17 year old. It doesn't suit grownups.
Hashem gave us His Torah. It's a heavy responsibility. And there will be people who screw up. It's nothing new. Zimri ben Salu was the Nasi of the Tribe of Shimon, for crying out loud. Shimi ben Gera. Yeravam ben Nevat. Elisha ben Avuya. Our history is hardly a stranger to big rabbis who go bad, and the best we have these days couldn't have so much walked in the shadows of those men.
The scandals bother you? They bother me, too. But they'll only get you to blow off the Torah if you've already decided to blow it off. If your emotional age is over 20, you know better than to identify an idea with fallible practitioners of that idea.
Regarding Taharat HaMishpacha, now you're just making yourself ridiculous. Who are you to say what is and is not good? What should or should not apply any more?
Hashem gave us a Torat Emet, and He gave it for forever. If the God you believe in (assuming you believe at all) is so stupid that he didn't know how things would be in the year 2006, then you're not dealing with Judaism at all.
Hashem's knowledge is not bound by time, and the laws that He gave us and called "eternal statutes" are just that. Eternal.
Not that any of this should be surprising me. Someone who would recommend that a frum Jew go Conservative is clearly not Orthodox in any way, shape, or form, himself. But this last simply blows my mind.
Opinions, it's been said, are like a**holes. Everyone has one. But they mostly stink.
You're entitled to an informed opinon, Jobbie, and you fall short. You don't know how Judaism works, you have an extremely Pauline view of the law (the Christian Paul claimed that the law was responsible for him committing sins, because if there hadn't been a law, he wouldn't have been violating it).
You're a fake, Jobbie. I don't know who you really are, but if you really do live in a frum community, and if you really ever did have a frum education, it's a roaring indictment of our educational system.
I point fingers at you. I call you names. I judge you. If you had a solid Jewish education and the barest amount of honesty, you'd point fingers at yourself, call yourself names, and judge yourself. That you don't is simply tragic.
Jobbie, I'd be more accepted if I didn't identify as Jewish at all. Hell, the Conservatives wouldn't ordain me if I wanted to get ordained. Why? Because I'm a lesbian. Nor would they let me marry my partner.
Granted, that's good. They shouldn't do same-sex marriage, and they shouldn't be ordaining women (though they shouldn't be ordaining men, either). But don't make it sound like the Conservative movement is some sort of queer paradise. If I was willing to trade my principles for acceptance, going Conservative wouldn't even do the job.
It's not that I enjoy attacking you. It's that you've identified here as a frum Jew (with flaws), and that, in my opinion, is dishonest. Pointing out a dishonesty isn't an attack. It's pointing out a dishonesty.
If I'm mistaken and you aren't trying to pass yourself off as some sort of frum Jew, then I take that back. But if that's the case, I have to ask why you think your advice is going to be relevant to me at all.
You don't like the proprietor, so you rebel against your Creator? Oh. Gee, I can see that. Sort of.
No, actually, Jobbie, I really can't. Not unless Judaism means nothing to you to begin with. If it meant anything at all to you, you'd either deal with not liking the store owner, or do without wine.
I make a big deal out of it because you don't get to decide what's an important commandment and what's unimportant. It's bizarre that you'd think it's okay. Most particularly after you spent so much time here bashing me for something that isn't even violating halakha.
That's what really offends me. It's bad enough when I get crapped on by frum Jews. It annoys me, because they should know better. But damn, at least they value the Torah. At least they're coming from a point of view of "The Torah is the ultimate value, and we think you're going against that value." They're wrong. I'm not. But at least they're starting from the right place, even if they wind up in the wrong one.
But you. You've been saying the most arrantly stupid stuff about it. Justifying that kind of behavior on the basis of claims you can't substantiate. You don't have the first idea how Judaism works, and you've been crapping on me. That's what irks me, Jobbie.
You are entitled to decide what you think is logical, but you are not entitled to act on that when it runs counter to the Torah. And Taharat HaMishpacha was not put in place by women. What kind of ignorant naarischkeit is that?
Maybe if you'd grow up, you'd find that you don't need to do the work of a teenager. I only hope that your children are getting a better Jewish education than you did.
Matisyahu?
I'm tired of you.
Yes, I think I do. All this stuff happens to you, none of it is your fault, poor you. Do I have that more or less right?
I can't speak to the examples you've given, because I have no idea whether you're representing them objectively. But I will point out that no one has an obligation to hire you for anything. While people do have an obligation to refrain from spreading rumors about people.
You seem to be unable to distinguish between the two.
No. You claim that the people you mention (1) are doing something wrong, (2) are typical Orthodox Jews.
I don't admit either one. You don't even claim that they spread rumors about you. They merely chose not to hire you again. And I suspect that with your attitude, there might have been more to that decision than you're saying.
Furthermore, and you seem unable -- or unwilling -- to grasp this: if an Orthodox Jew behaves wrongly, that doesn't mean that Orthodox Judaism is flawed. You're engaging in a kind of magical thinking, where if Orthodox Judaism is actually what Hashem wants from us, then every Orthodox Jew will magically be a perfect person.
You only need to read the Torah to see how ludicrous that idea is. People are people. They make mistakes. Let's say the people you described were in the wrong, just for the sake of argument. So what? That's bad. But it doesn't say the first thing about Judaism itself.
As far as what you claim your father says, if you are quoting him correctly, which I suspect you are not, then he needs a major refresher course in Shmirat HaLashon. It is absolutely unacceptable to relate the marital woes of a certain couple to anyone else. It's none of anyone's business.
Or was he referring to your friend telling you about his marital woes? If so, it might not be as absurd a claim, but you'd still be wrong. If he claims his wife is doing something wrong within their relationship, he is forbidden to be telling you about it, and you are forbidden to believe him if he does tell you about it.
Lastly, I don't care if your father is 500 years old and has been learning Torah non-stop for all that time. Something is true or not based on whether it is true or not. Not because someone you respect says it. And while you may have a requirement of kibud/mora av towards your father, I don't even know who you or your father are, so I certainly do not. And what you claim he is saying is patently false.
First of all, aside from the mistaken analogy, you should realize that a mamzer isn't being punished for the mother's wrongdoing. Or the child of a married woman who was raped wouldn't be a mamzer. Even the Torah attaches no blame to a rape victim.
But back to your analogy. What, exactly do you think that my partner and I have done that is assur? And what's your justification for making such an accusation?
Also, lakewoodyid, I would like to quote something I read recently:
When I see someone driving a car, I don't use my reasoning to conclude that someone drove a car. I saw it! But when I see a Jew driving on Shabbos, I don't "see'' Chilul Shabbos. He could have been driving to the hospital. But if I do use the "evidence" and then use my reasoning to conclude that he was Mechalel Shabbos (the guy is a known mechalel shabbos etc), could that conclusion be considered as Emes?
I know that this analogy isn't the best. But is my argument here correct? When you reach a conclusion via rationality and evidence, and you prove that your conclusion works, being that you never "saw it", just rather its a proven conclusion, does that classify it as Emes? Meaning, since your conclusion is based on evidence and reason, perhaps new evidence might be found.
I am as aware as anyone, and more than most, of the problems with the secular/gentile gay community. But I am not a part of that community. I am a Torah Jew. I should be treated as one. And my daughter... you drew a comparison to mamzerut. Yet even a mamzer would not be cut off from a Torah education the way certain people in my community tried to do to her.
Please think about this and try to recognize that your assumptions are not Emet.
Lakewood Yid, I agree that there are halakhot in which innocent people can suffer. Mamzerut is a classic example. We believe that this life is not the end of the story, and that people who suffer in a way that appears to be unjust in this world will... have it made up to them, for lack of a better phrasing.
It sounds horrible, like a justification for accepting any injustice at all, and that really doesn't resonate with the Jewish neshama, but there it is.
But that's Hashem. We don't know everything, and we can't understand all of the ins and outs of His justice, so we can say that. We don't say that about acts and decisions of other human beings. Basar v'dam, we hold to a standard of justice.
And yes, even with basar v'dam, there are issues, such as the agunah problem, where individuals can suffer unjustly. But we do judge in such situations. We judge recalcitrant husbands extremely harshly, and we demand that they change their behavior.
And then, as we continue on the spectrum of human behavior from a gezeirat ha-katuv to a situation that is in human hands, but one that is halakhically delineated very tightly, to one that is merely a matter of rumor and innuendo.
When an injustice is done by people who simply have their minds in the gutter, no excuses need be made for them. It is wrong, plain and simple. Even excluding me and my partner is wrong. Excluding our daughter is that much wronger.
As far as your ikkar question: "Why should an innocent child who happens to be a mamzer not be allowed to marry into the kahal," my answer is that we don't judge Hashem. If the Shofet Kol HaAretz says that's the way it has to be, we assume that He knows what He's doing, even if it hurts.
LY, I'm going to try and address your second comment, with the citation from the Rambam, even though it really belongs on the Orthodykes blog.
"Nashim ha-mesollelot zu b'zu" does not translate to "lesbian sex". That's like translating "basar neveilah u-treifa" as "meat".
I'm not sure what you mean by "typical lesbian". Do you mean taking my daughter to dance class? Do you mean lighting candles with her on Erev Shabbat? I'm trying to get a picture of what you think of when you say "typical lesbian".
Sure, if you pick up a translation of a sefer, it's going to render NM as "lesbianism" or "lesbian sex". But it's also going to render tum'ah as "impurity" or as "ritual uncleanliness". And I assume you know how inaccurate that translation is. But when we write English translations, we give very rough translations. We know that if someone wants to know what our sources actually say, they'll look at them in the original.
It's a shame that you had to take so long looking up the source. You could check this out and get lots and lots of sources. I'm well aware of what is forbidden, and I assure you that neither I nor my partner do things that are assur as a policy.
"What's an average lesbian" isn't the issue. "What's the average frum lesbian"... now that's more to the point.
I do not identify with the secular/gentile GLBT community. I will not be tarred with their behaviors.
I've explained myself. I've made it clear that I am a frum Jew, and that I am makpid on the mitzvot, kulot k'chumrot. You, on the other hand, are extremely meikil when it comes to shmirat halashon. And that's a shame.
Furthermore, people know I'm gay. If I were to remove the word "lesbian" from the description, it would simply invite the gossip mongers in the blogosphere to announce it. I don't doubt that you'd be among them.
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